Bought a thing and already broke it

"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678) 02/29/2020 at 00:50 • Filed to: None

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On Thursday evening I scored a nice deal on a toy that I have added to my collection of things. A Giant Talon 3 in decent shape for $190. This was originally about a $500 bike so it’s a decent deal considering it’s cosmetically in decent shape and nothing is in disrepair. It could definitely use a tune up to adjust the derailers, grease up the chain, and bleed the brakes at the very least. But those should be easy to tackle some of it myself and/or use a shop. Couldn’t hurt to have a once over on it. Today though I proceeded to take it on a nice technical ride and promptly broke it.

There’s something missing there! I made it through all of the hairy parts of the ride and thought wow, this bike is holding up great. We’ll apparently I must have bashed a rock just right because I snapped the derailer off. It just took until the home stretch of my ride on pavement to fall apart. Here’s a look at the carnage after I got it apart at home :

Looking it up on Google, it’s a very cheap part though Thankfully. It should be an easy bolt in affair to affix a new one with spending less than $30 on the part. I suppose I could use it as an excuse to upgrade but it’s more than up for the task as far as I’m concerned at my level anyways.

Back to the ride though, it was an excellent route for sure. I biked about 2.5 miles from home to the trail head, heading over some rolling paved hills with beautiful scenery. It was a workout for sure but a nice start. From there it was about 1000 feet of downhill jam over the next 5 miles. So a relatively gradual slope with varying mildly technical terrain. It eventually got super technical and overgrown and I got lost a couple times. But overall it was fun and got me all the way down to the beach.

After a nice dip of my toes into the chilly but refreshing water, I got back on the road for a straightforward 2 mile ride on the PCH back to my street. I had a grueling 1400 foot climb ahead of me for the next two miles after that but with plenty of water and breaks, I knew I’d be fine.

Unfortunately about a half mile into riding along is when disaster struck and my pedals became entirely useless. When I looked down and saw the derailer swinging around I knew something had gone wrong. I had hoped it was just a bolt that came loose but upon inspection I found it sheared in half. No battlefield medicine was gonna fix that, not that I had any tools anyways. I got lucky though and one of my roommates was at home and happily came to pick me up in his Jeep. Saved me from biking up the hill anyways!

Great start to my bike ownership. Will see how much luck I can continue to have! I’ll grab a derailer at the store tomorrow and be back in business ASAP. But I’m probably interested in the brakes having work done before riding again anyways. They certainly functioned well enough but I'd like way more bite and fine control which I'm sure is just a tune up away. 

facw > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 02/29/2020 at 01:08

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Sounds like it could have been a lot worse. Cheap fix, and you weren’t stranded or forced to take out links and ride it as a single-speed.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > facw 02/29/2020 at 01:12

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Haha yeah I guess finding a way to go single speed could have worked. But then the hill part would have been impossible anyways. I guess I'm lucky it didn't happen way earlier, I'd have certainly had to walk through some annoying stuff rather than get a ride. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 02/29/2020 at 01:31

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It looks like that bike has a history of chain suck. All of the paint missing on the chainstay behind the big ring indicates that a poorly lubed chain was sucked up into that gap. This kind of derailleur damage usually happens when it gets forced into the spokes. The shiny spots on the spokes tell me that something has been hitting them and it was probably the derailleur.   A rock or stick can push the derailleur into the spokes, but it can also happen if something catches an improperly tied-down cable housing . Those zip ties on the chain stay may have been responsible for this. As they slip forward, the cable housing can hang loose and get caught on an object or even on your pedal. When you get it put back together, make sure you use the slots in the cable guides to strap down the housing. The brake line on the other side is tied down properly.

The filth on the bike and the condition of the cassette suggests it is in desperate need of a good cleaning and lube job. I’d bet the chain is completely worn out (which contributes to chain suck) and it looks like some of the cassette cogs, especially that 34 tooth,   may need to be replaced. They are showing some wear. I would get a new chain and then see how the links fit on the old cogs. If they don’t fit well, get a new cog. If you don’t, you’ll be at risk of chain skip. When that happens under load, you can end up on your face (I learned that one the hard way).

Sheldon Brown has a great article about chain and cog wear: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/chain-wear.html

Now is the time to make an upgrade if you can afford it. Acera is the bottom of the Shimano lineup for bike-store parts. They make cheaper stuff for chain stores, but what you have is entry-level. As you move up the line, you get lighter weight, better bushings or bearings, and better materials.

Good luck!

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > TheRealBicycleBuck 02/29/2020 at 02:17

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Thank you for the in depth analysis from just some simple photos! I figured there’d be plenty of parts worth changing out. And yeah I had hoped to just grab parts a tier up as I replace each thing. It’s certainly been ridden at least a bit which is fine, means it’s worth riding at least. It was a bit ambitious to go on a real ride  without doing some maintenance, but it was a good shake down anyways. Chain slip was definitely a thing occasionally during the ride and I noticed the missing paint on one of those occasions where I had to fix it. Any suggestions on "just above entry level" sort of parts I should look into? I definitely don't need high end or even middle of the road stuff. But I'd gladly spend a bit more since it's sure to make a difference. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 02/29/2020 at 10:26

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Back in the day, there weren’t as many tiers available . Keep in mind that the technology always trickles down, so the elements that made up the XT tier last year would be on the Deore tier this year. Up to a point, that is. We always aimed for XT since it was top tech without getting into race tech which was often stupid-light. Some of the XTR gear had a reputation for breaking under heavy use. It was like a race car - meant to require significant maintenance or replacement after a race or two, or perhaps a season.

When your bike was built, Acera was the entry-level choice . Now they’ve added several tiers below that. I haven’t been paying attention to the industry lately, so I can’t tell you if they elevated the quality of Acera and the new Tourney is the equivalent of the old Acera or if they just decided to add a few new tiers that are further down-market from Acera. Shimano also likes to sell some named groupsets to manufacturers while selling others as standalone groupsets that any consumer can buy at the bike shop. I did a little digging and found a couple of resources: Chain Reaction’s 2020 guide to MTB parts , and Bike Radar’s guide . One is a little more marketing, the other a little more generic, but they should give you some basic insights. Neither gets into the gritty details like which use bearings and which use bushings.

Just keep in mind that mixing and matching parts can be tricky. The chainring and cog widths determine the width of the chain you have to buy and the number of gears determine which shifters you can use. Your current drivetrain is a 3x8 megarange. Tr ying to upgrade to a 9-speed cassette would probably require new chainrings, a new cassette, new shifters and new derailleurs. At least, that used to be the case. The chain for 3x8 drivetrains was wider than the 9- and 10- speed chains.

The range of the cassette also affects what rear derailleur you should buy. Wide-range gearing like that 34-tooth megarange cog require a longer derailleur that can handle a longer chain. There’s a lot of theory behind gearing. If you’re the kind of rider that usually stays in the middle front ring and just shifts the rear from the 34 to the 11, then sticking with the megarange is probably the right thing to do. It’s easier, for certain. It’s also why the 1x9 drivetrains exist. If your riding includes riding both up and down hills, then using the big ring and granny gear will give you the full range you need. If you’re not climbing steep stuff and want to save a bit of weight, you could upgrade to a 2x8 setup. I personally wouldn’t do it since I’m getting old and the granny is my friend.

When you replace the cassette, you might consider ditching the megarange and going with something that has a better transition between first and second gears. The megarange was designed to provide a really low gear for when you need it, but the jump between 1 and 2 is really big. That makes shifting harder and it also means a big shift in cadence between those gears. It’s almost like switching between the rings up front. If you look up some gear calculators, you’ll see that most gears change the gear ratio from 10 to 15%. The jump on the megarange is from 26 to 34, a massive 31% change.

Alright, I can see that I’ve jumped into the deep end. Sorry about that. In short: upgrade at least one step; keep in mind the big picture when selecting upgrades; replace the rear derailleur, rear cassette, and the chain all in one go; and check the condition of the front chain rings - there’s a good chanc e the middle ring is worn and the big ring is worn and damaged from abuse.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 02/29/2020 at 11:23

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When you’ve been on this bike a while let oppo know and we can point you in the direction of bikes that cost more than your Miata. In all seriousness if you get a used bike and actually ride it like a real mountain bike the price of entry is going to be $ 500-1000. After that is all just nicer lighter stuff. I just spent $750 on wheels and they are mid range!

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 02/29/2020 at 11:25

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I want a write up of your European ski adventure. Inquiring minds want to know.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > TheRealBicycleBuck 02/29/2020 at 11:44

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I’m definitely not looking to change the gearing setup, as I’m too new to know what I really would want anyways. This felt pretty good for the stuff I was riding, gave me plenty of options and I used pretty much the entire range at some point on the ride.

“ replace the rear derailleur, rear cassette, and the chain all in one go”

That’s definitely the best plan I see! I was gonna go to a local bike shop today and ask about such parts and see what they carry which would be compatible with my current 3x8 setup. I should be able to get away with spending less than $200 on parts and a tune up and have a really nice setup that will be fun for a while.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 02/29/2020 at 11:46

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Ahh yeah I guess I only really wrote about the trains in my post about Switzerland, kind of just glossing over the skiing part. I found the actual skiing to be mediocre, mainly due to snow conditions. And being spoiled with Utah powder on the regular. But the scenery and super long runs made it an experience unmatched elsewhere. So it was more like going hiking and felt like an adventure rather than technical skiing. 

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 02/29/2020 at 11:50

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Well yeah im not interested in another expensive hobby. I would entirely give up on the sport if I was spending that kinda money. I have been avoiding track days for the same reason, gotta save up that coin! I just wanted a casual bike to go adventure every once in a while. This thing is like half the weight of any other bike I’ve owned so it’s a good frame and I look forward to some basic rides. My favorite bike rides are rolling smooth dirt/clay, fire roads, and rail trails so I’m not doing anything crazy. Either way it’s a good workout when I’m not skiing.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 02/29/2020 at 13:23

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If you want to learn how to wrench on it yourself, here’s a list of places to order parts:

nashbar, performance bike, chain reaction cycles, and of course, amazon.

Sheldon Brown has been gone for some time, but his website lives on and it contains a lot of information on bikes and how they work.

One last thing - check your rear spokes. There’s a good chance some of them are loose or damaged. If you don’t know what to do, talk to the bike shop about it.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 02/29/2020 at 13:39

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I rode the lift with a woman who said she was in France in January and the skiing was lousy but the scenery and experience was very unique. 

Nom De Plume > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 02/29/2020 at 14:43

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I see your head has already been littered stuffed with things you don’t need and don’t want.

The only truly important task that needs to happen is having a competent shop put a rear derailleur alignment tool on it. Expensive tool, cheap and easy work.

About 99% sure all of this needs to be replaced and that you didn’t get the greatest deal in the world.

New cables

New chain

New cassette

Used rear derailleur (If shifters will work with anything nicer and price is negligible. Do it, if for nothing else durability)

Wheels trued

New Grips

Then ride the snot out of it AND adjust the fit to meet your largish amount of climbing and terrain. That might mean a new stem or bars but in reality it means riding a ton and acting on what feels wrong.

Enjoy the ride and go at the trails hard enough to break things!

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 02/29/2020 at 22:31

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There definitely is some good skiing if it snows and you know where to look. It’s just very different than the US. Ungroomed trails are all labeled “off piste” and advanced/experts only. Even if it would otherwise be a blue square in Vermont or something. Just the fact that it isn’t groomed makes it “extreme”. But yeah the second day I did actually ski a gnarly powder run in Italy. Very dense heavy snow but it was untracked in a rather technical fall line. Suuuuuuper long trail. I wish I had found that sooner, it was the best thing I skied the whole trip. Very remincisent of going off the top at big Sky and riding all the way to the bottom.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Nom De Plume 02/29/2020 at 22:36

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Well yeah considering the condition after a more thorough inspection, it certainly should have been cheaper really. But that's okay, I can piece meal parts until it's basically new. It's kinda fun to build something up from the heap anyways. I know it's how I like my cars so might as well do bikes that way too!